This is an anonymous post from an Elpha member.

Is this normal? Brutal negotiation process

Malvina69·Nov 17, 2021

Posted in:Advice Compensation Career Growth

Hi all! I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask (please let me know if not!), but I recently went through a pretty rough negotiation process and was wondering what everyone else's experience with negotiation has been?

I am a 4th year undergraduate computer science major hoping to go into web development. I completed an internship over the summer with a company that then offered me a full time role after I graduate this summer.

I had a phone call with someone from HR recently and I brought up compensation and began to negotiate. I had a range in mind and let her know, however she immediately began to say things such as "you have zero years of experience" and "I think what I'm offering you is the best you're going to get" but in a way that was extremely condescending.

Is this what people are really meant to say in order to discourage you from asking for your desired salary range? Do I just need to toughen up?

The entire conversation left me extremely upset and I feel discouraged from going after what I feel I deserve to be paid. Any advice/insight would be much appreciated!

Iynna·Nov 17, 2021

This is definitely the place to talk about this and ask this question! Thank you for sharing this.How was your overall experience at the firm? Was the HR's tone and overall behavior reflective of the firm as a whole? I am asking because that does not sound positive at all and it is almost a turnoff / red flag for me. That said if everyone across the board wa super pleasant and you're actually encouraged to join the firm then sure go for it.Couple of things though: perhaps the range the HR is offering for the role is fair and at market rate actually - what do you think? Is it actually a fair number? That said, I don't believe she needed to say things like you have zero years of experience etc. we know this and you worked at the first this summer so they know the quality of your work) so to answer your questions, no I don't think this is how a salary negotiation should go. If anything it is a conversation where both parties are trying to come to an agreement rather than a confrontation. And it is not about toughening up per se but mostly using this as a lesson that hey sometimes you might just not hear what you want to hear and you may experience things you never expected. Wit a few reps you'll soon know how to best respond to those types of situations.

sallyd·Nov 18, 2021

I guess the issue is that there isn't a lack of supply at entry level and just as you feel disappointed the call didn't go how you wanted, they might be frustrated after the call too. I'm not sure toughen up is the right way to say it, but maybe remember this isn't personal, they have a budget which is often rigid on entry level.

maggiewolff·Nov 18, 2021

The responses I've gotten to attempting to negotiate salary have really varied, from practically being laughed at by my boss (when I asked if I could negotiate the salary that came with a promotion), to being told "no" more than once (when evaluating an external offer and also when accepting a lateral job change within the same team but to a higher-paying type of job). Finally the 4th time I attempted a negotiation (when receiving an external offer) I actually had a good experience and it resulted in a bigger salary. That being said, there is certainly a professional way to handle it, and I don't think the person you talked to handled it professionally. But at the end of the day, recruiters are essentially salespeople, so sometimes they use similar tactics. (Such as "you aren't going to get a better offer elsewhere.") Regardless, ANY time there is an offer on the table is an appropriate time to negotiate. Also, GOOD FOR YOU for being willing to negotiate so early in your career. I didn't really know it was an option and then didn't have the courage to even attempt it until I was 30. (And as I shared, it didn't go so well the first few attempts.)

madien·Nov 18, 2021

I have endured quite a bit of condescending responses in my career to such discussions, and I have realized that the key to handling those is to know your options and your worth in the market. To confirm your experience, yes, this experience is common. Both company cultures and individual HR's biases play a role, and the experience can be proportionately worse if you are a PoC, or an immigrant speaking with an accent (which I was - still am, but now I know the mental workings behind such conversations).I could write a book about my stories, but the wisdom is this: keeping your cool and stating calmly why you deserve the salary you do helps. If your overall experience with the Engineering team has been positive then you could call the hiring manager and report in a non-emotional way, but only if you are certain that your position is paid more in the market. (I've done this and have been successful). Do NOT call him/her about HR's attitude because they often can't do much to fix that. Many times, the Engineering managers are eager to hire talent and are willing to pay, but HR act as if it's their own personal money. With the HR, turn the discussion into a more constructive conversation by asking the HR why the company has the salary slabs/policies as they do, if you can see that the salaries are below-market. If you think you deserve better due to a previous experience that is not similar but could help you succeed, bring it into the conversation too.Keep your other options open. A job search is exhausting but you owe yourself a thorough exploration of opportunities. And last but not the least, after all else fails, if you have interned there and if you like the team and can learn a lot of valuable skills, and if the salary they are offering you is sufficient to get you a good living, then refusing it for the sake of a few thousand dollars may be a penny wise, pound foolish strategy. Especially if you do not have any visa-related constraints, experience is much more important than money when you are starting out. Good experience will open doors.Hope this helps.

madelinefahey·Nov 18, 2021

Adding to some great answers below—first of all, congratulations on your solid internship performance landing you this opportunity! As for comments from HR, so sorry to hear that—not needed or cool! We'll chalk it up to they were having a bad day. Let the comments roll like water off a duck's back. Guarantee/hope you will not even recall this moment one year from now because you will be way too busy doing awesome stuff!I am currently in interview/search phase between roles myself and have been experimenting with a new approach this time around compensation negotiation. I am liking the direction but *disclaimer* may not be for everyone or for specific scenarios: (1) Delaying comp convo for as long as I can in order to be outcomes-based through interviewing (does not apply to your scenario and there are different schools of thought here); (2) If topic arises, not giving range but flipping question and asking recruiter/interviewer instead for the range/band that would be typical given role/experience and using this to inform myself; (3) if pushed and no way around it, not giving a range—instead "based on my understanding of the role at this point in time, my market research, and the value that I will bring to this role, I am asking for at or about [insert high point of your range]." By giving a range, generally other party will immediately start at the lower end in negotiations. By starting at higher end and not including range, objective would be to land in the middle more favorably to you. Case by case for total comp, stock, bonuses, etc. but using this rule set for base salary these days and liking the conversations.My point of view is that there is generally always wiggle room, that no one is going to give you anything without you asking/the worst someone can *usually* say is no, and to stay cool/keep your poker face and be able to have patience. Agree with @madien on redirecting conversation to be constructive and being aware of a penny-wise, pound-foolish mindset (especially coming out of school), but also having vision that whatever edge now will be an investment in future you/your overall earnings down the road in subsequent negotiations.Here are two worthwhile negotiation webinars I have recently attended in case you're interested (one is $20; one is free): https://shop.ellevest.com/products/negotiation-workshop^passive lunch n' learn style; $20 if non-member; you can take screenshots/notes but they don't send recordingshttps://breakline.org/classes/^look for "Negotiating Compensation"—free and open to public; content geared toward program participants (women, people of color and veterans pivoting into tech) but excellent takeaways for anyone; expect to do some prep and it's cold call style so if not comfortable with that format, would recommend to push outside of comfort zone (this is what I did :-) and honestly learned so much)Wishing you all the best!

ReemaHibrawi·Dec 07, 2021

I'm curious to know what industry this organization is in as that might impact the salary. Regardless, it sounds like HR wasn't prepared for you to negotiate and didn't handle it well by being defensive. It seems to me that because you interned there, they assumed it would be an easy conversion and you wouldn't advocate for yourself and do your research. As others already said, it could also have been a bad day for this person and this made it harder. Don't take this personally. Companies and some HR teams can be ruthless in pushing for hiring people at the lowest salaries they can. It's short sighted but ultimately, is decided by leadership. I had a similar bad experience with HR and I reached out to the hiring manager but he wasn't able to do much and said HR decided salaries. My experience was so bad that I decided to pass on the job even though the hiring manager and team seemed great. It's up to you what you end up doing but I'd argue the web development skills (any level) are a hot commodity especially nowadays. But I'd do my research first. In the meantime if you aren't doing this already, I'd work on some freelance work to build up your resume. You have work experience, despite the traditional view that you have to be fully employed for it to matter (it doesn't). Good luck!